TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Discuss the awesomeness of the Prevue Channel, Prevue Interactive, Prevue Networks/United Video Satellite Group, TV Guide Inc., etc. right here.
hen7713
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by hen7713 »

curtjr4 wrote:Hey Guys,
I know I am a bit... off topic. Please excuse me for being offtopic :P
Now, I was wondering if anyone knew how to get it to show the listings. I read the thread, but it still wont work after setting the date to April 1 1999. It returns Error 007. The time is 9:22 PM in the emulator. Anyone know how to fix this?
I'll send the UAE file uno momento. I wasn't able to get your configuration file to work for me.
PearGuide - mms://hen7713.com:8081/ (Open in something such as Windows Media Player, VLC, etc)
LocalH
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by LocalH »

Well, the software does update the cached listings sometimes. I originally ran it too much without the date being set right, and even after setting the date properly, I got no listings, but after restoring to a virgin copy, they magically appeared.

I need to find an Amiga tool that will wipe the clock RAM. I think that's my problem - I tried booting the software with DH0: disabled after having the system powered off for over a day, and it still had the wrong time as compared to what the clock was set to in my startup. My wager is, with clock RAM cleared, I'll get listings again.
JoeTheDragon
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by JoeTheDragon »

swest77 wrote:
AriX wrote:As further evidence to swest's finding that the EPG channel was started way before 1985, check out trademark serial number 73398017 for the Electronic Program Guide (and logo). It was filed in 1982.
And used ("FIRST USE: 19810923", "FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19811109") as early as September 1981, so that seems to sync perfectly with what the SEC report says.

@LH - Yes, that looks like exactly the same thing. I wonder if the failure of the video overlays to appear has anything to do with why they were pressing Ctrl-U? (Like, if they were pressing it in response to that, is what would be an interesting piece of information.)

About the two different Sneak Prevues, I did have it at one point on my old cable system, but don't know which it was and can't offer specific information on it (other than things learned on the net) because I had nil to do with it with UV.

And about EPG/PG's VBI data, all I could tell from looking at WGN's VBI way back when -- and not with a frequency monitor but with a proc amp that simply let me to roll it onto the screen for visual inspection -- was that it had lots of data in it. Because I knew their VBI "fed Prevue Guide," I assumed the bulk of it was UV's. Now that it appears UV used a dedicated data subcarrier for "text" (which I assume was that satellite list's author's word for "listings"), and mindful of those EPG Data vs. Control Data traces on the VBI decoder card, I'm thinking the VBI must have possibly only been for the "control" data (think separate data channel for anything that needs to be communicated instantly, so it won't end up being delayed by a traffic jam on the 2400 baud feed).

Re: "data transmitted as an audio feed too", technically this 7.237 MHz subcarrier I'm talking about was both. Data as audio... just like a dial-up modem on a phone line. So in total, it looks like the satellite decoder card may have watched two sources: WGN's VBI and 7.237 MHz (or for non-EPG boxes, PG's VBI and maybe 7.237 MHz there too).

@edit - It is also entirely possible that this 7.237 MHz subcarrier was only used with the pre-1985 units. Really, unless more information can be found, it's probably pointless for me to have speculated above as far as I did. I just know there was VBI data from 1985 onwards, and (thanks to this PDF) that there was an audio data feed before it. :D
talking about wgn America where did Chicago land cable systems get there guide data from as they NEVER HAD wgn america. They had WGN 9 / WGN OTA.

also there cable system that back in 1981-1982? had a dual 60 channle A-B system (super head end feeding a few city's) later they duped the A-B sides to be 100% the same but in 1993? 1994? they had a emulate a digitally compressed future with up to 120 analog channels of near video-on-demand. http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article- ... kages.html That endhead may of even had some OTA scrambled UHF channels on it.
AriX
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by AriX »

JoeTheDragon wrote:talking about wgn America where did Chicago land cable systems get there guide data from as they NEVER HAD wgn america. They had WGN 9 / WGN OTA.

also there cable system that back in 1981-1982? had a dual 60 channle A-B system (super head end feeding a few city's) later they duped the A-B sides to be 100% the same but in 1993? 1994? they had a emulate a digitally compressed future with up to 120 analog channels of near video-on-demand. http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article- ... kages.html That endhead may of even had some OTA scrambled UHF channels on it.
I apologize, but I don't quite understand what you're saying... Can you try to be a little bit clearer and use better and more careful grammar when typing?

We don't really know how that worked in Chicago, but before the Prevue Guide feed was set up in 1988, they likely either used WGN America internally even though it wasn't available over cable, or had a direct data feed from somewhere.
curtjr4
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by curtjr4 »

AriX wrote:
JoeTheDragon wrote:talking about wgn America where did Chicago land cable systems get there guide data from as they NEVER HAD wgn america. They had WGN 9 / WGN OTA.

also there cable system that back in 1981-1982? had a dual 60 channle A-B system (super head end feeding a few city's) later they duped the A-B sides to be 100% the same but in 1993? 1994? they had a emulate a digitally compressed future with up to 120 analog channels of near video-on-demand. http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article- ... kages.html That endhead may of even had some OTA scrambled UHF channels on it.
I apologize, but I don't quite understand what you're saying... Can you try to be a little bit clearer and use better and more careful grammar when typing?

We don't really know how that worked in Chicago, but before the Prevue Guide feed was set up in 1988, they likely either used WGN America internally even though it wasn't available over cable, or had a direct data feed from somewhere.
It's likely that the cable headend didn't assign WGN America a cable modulator... so that would mean that they would be using a VideoCipher to extract the VBI encoded data, then it would authorize the data, then it would send the data to the unit. So they are basically taking the WGN America feed, extracting the data, feeding the EPG/Prevue unit, and terminating the WGN America Audio/Video.
JoeTheDragon
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by JoeTheDragon »

curtjr4 wrote:
AriX wrote:
JoeTheDragon wrote:talking about wgn America where did Chicago land cable systems get there guide data from as they NEVER HAD wgn america. They had WGN 9 / WGN OTA.

also there cable system that back in 1981-1982? had a dual 60 channle A-B system (super head end feeding a few city's) later they duped the A-B sides to be 100% the same but in 1993? 1994? they had a emulate a digitally compressed future with up to 120 analog channels of near video-on-demand. http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article- ... kages.html That endhead may of even had some OTA scrambled UHF channels on it.
I apologize, but I don't quite understand what you're saying... Can you try to be a little bit clearer and use better and more careful grammar when typing?

We don't really know how that worked in Chicago, but before the Prevue Guide feed was set up in 1988, they likely either used WGN America internally even though it wasn't available over cable, or had a direct data feed from somewhere.
It's likely that the cable headend didn't assign WGN America a cable modulator... so that would mean that they would be using a VideoCipher to extract the VBI encoded data, then it would authorize the data, then it would send the data to the unit. So they are basically taking the WGN America feed, extracting the data, feeding the EPG/Prevue unit, and terminating the WGN America Audio/Video.
Did the cable co have to pay for WGN America then? and if so why did not show up on any local area cable system.
curtjr4
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by curtjr4 »

Did the cable co have to pay for WGN America then? and if so why did not show up on any local area cable system.
I think it works like this... if the cable headend purchases a block of channels from the parent company (ie. Lionsgate), they will get all of the channels provided by Lionsgate... however, they are allowed to pick through the channels and air the ones they purchased. I think it works that way... i'll need to double check, though.
AriX
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by AriX »

curtjr4 wrote:
Did the cable co have to pay for WGN America then? and if so why did not show up on any local area cable system.
I think it works like this... if the cable headend purchases a block of channels from the parent company (ie. Lionsgate), they will get all of the channels provided by Lionsgate... however, they are allowed to pick through the channels and air the ones they purchased. I think it works that way... i'll need to double check, though.
Well, Lionsgate is a bad example since they only have one channel. But I don't think it works that way (I could be wrong). This is a good question for swest77, I think he's even explained this to me in the past.
swest77
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by swest77 »

You guys are applying a consumer access control mindset (hostility-oriented) to how big businesses interact mutually. ;) Within the cable industry, a deal simply would have been struck allowing providers not carrying WGN America to descramble it anyway, without payment to WGN, for the sake of obtaining access to the Prevue Guide VBI data. Those cable systems would then have been on the honor system to simply not pipe WGN through to their customers.

Generally, there is no "policeman in the machine" in the professional world. For example, there's no such thing as professional video or audio gear that obeys copy-protection signals. And in cases where "policemen in the machine" do exist, like with satellite encryption or scrambling, free exemptions can often easily be had as courtesies for various reasons. Walk into any local television station, for instance, and you will often find a Dish Network or DirecTV set-top box fully authorized for absolutely every channel. The reason: the newsies. When you're watching WNYW's 10 o'clock news in New York and see clips from a Lakers game with a "Fox Sports Los Angeles" logo in the corner of the screen, it's because they probably got it off their DirecTV box with all the regional sports channels forced on. Etc. In the professional world, access is a secondary concern; you're simply expected to honestly report and pay for anything you actually use. Same logic for WGN and Prevue Guide. As long as the cable companies not paying for WGN didn't give it to their subscribers, WGN wouldn't have cared less if those cable companies were descrambling it for other reasons.

Besides, these people have ways of checking up on how well others are obeying the honor system. Remember when you were a kid, and Nickelodeon constantly had advertisements to send in a postcard for a chance to win some cheesy prize? And when the Disney Channel did too? As well as all the other channels? Well, contests do raise ratings, sure. But can you guess what their ulterior motive was? If you guessed finding out which zip codes (which cable companies) were carrying their signals, you guessed right. Back when C/Ku-band satellite feeds weren't scrambled (and even for many years after they first were, given how the early VC scrambling methods were easily pwned), giving a couple kids free t-shirts every month was a really cheap way to find out which cable companies to send their $1,000,000/hour lawyers crawling up the asses of with flashlights. (This trick went out of fashion when more secure encryption schemes got popular; as well as when cable industry competition from DBS providers started skewing the results.) Another example: radio stations generally get their music libraries for free. (If they pay anything, it's only for duplilcation should they use "library in a can" services like TM-Century.) Yet to make sure stations paid their royalties for on-air performances, record companies actually hired people to listen to the stations in their areas and log the songs heard. (Nowadays, there are computerized listening posts in most markets that automatically make those logs, using audio pattern recognition software to identify all the music. Commercials too. Sponsors like knowing if their money actually gets their advertisements heard on air.)

So, yeah. The honor system. With occasional spying. :)

Anyway, and back to WGN, it was really easy in their case for cable companies to get access. United Video was the company responsible for putting WGN on satellite, after all. With Prevue Guide's owners controlling WGN's VCII+ descrambling keys, any cable companies not carrying WGN but running Prevue Guide wouldn't have even needed to deal with WGN directly.
AriX
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Re: TV Guide Channel Emulation Working!

Post by AriX »

In addition to swest77's point, it seems that the Prevue Channel and WGN were even sold by the same group of UVSG (United Video Network Services): http://web.archive.org/web/199901251042 ... .uvns.com/ (Wait until the logo at the top loads)
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